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Wzmacniacze i akcesoria => Wzmacniacze i kolumny => Wątek zaczęty przez: sinquestsound w 04 Paź, 2016, 12:30:02

Tytuł: Mesa rectifier 2x12 [140/120W] Why?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: sinquestsound w 04 Paź, 2016, 12:30:02

Witam, Miałem już 3 paczki recto 2x12 teraz mam starą USA i jest 140 W poprzednie dwie 120W. W sumie V30 jest 60 W, chyba że wcześniej robili 70W? Ktoś coś? Powiem szczerze że tą co mam teraz rozpierdala w pył 2 pozostałe! Gra z taką głębią jak 4x12 jest ciemniejsza i ma mniejszy fizz. Pomijam rozegrane V30 no ale po prostu masakruje.

Pozdrawiam.

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Posty połączone: 04 Paź, 2016, 12:50:49

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Tytuł: Odp: Mesa rectifier 2x12 [140/120W] Why?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: zerotolerance w 04 Paź, 2016, 13:16:35

Przeklejając to co napisałem/zebrałem na innym forum:

Rozróżniamy 3 różne wersje V30, oto one (głośniki, które używają kopułki o oznaczeniu 444):

Marshall = T3989 (8 ohm) lub T3897 (16 ohm)
Celestion = T3903 (8 ohm) lub T3904 (16 ohm)
Mesa = T4335 (8 ohm) lub T4416 (16 ohm)

Wypowiedź Stevena Fryette odnośnie V30 (angielski wymagany):

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The 30 in V30 has nothing to do with power handling. But making a distinction between the Mesa version and the off-the-shelf version is legit, even though it has little to do with actual power handling capacity. The rated power handling of the V30 of any version (see below) is 65W.

The Mesa version is OEM. This is the T4416 model, which is an 16 ohm speaker. It is made in England specifically for Mesa. But Mesa didn't specify it that way. From what we were told by Celestion around 1997-8, Celestion changed the model T3904 (16 ohm) V30 design in the early 90s to make it easier and cheaper to produce. Mesa didn't like it and insisted on the original version, which then became an OEM model. The 8 ohm version of the Mesa speaker is the T4335. To get an OEM model from Celestion requires a large order. This speaker was made on a separate production line from the off-the-shelf V30, which as Van Nord says is fizzy and thin sounding by comparison.

There is a third 16 ohm version only used by Marshall - T3897 - which is even brighter.

When we were using Celestion speakers, we found out about the existence of the T4416 which we had purchased from our German distributor at the time and asked Celestion about it. They had claimed that they didn't offer OEM varitions of the V30, but changed their story when we sent them a T4416 "for evaluation". Then a new rep called us, confirmed that there were in fact two separate V30 production lines and agreed to make us a special T Number OEM speaker. After a couple of months back and forth, we placed a large order and requested the special number assignment, at which time they cancelled the order and reneged on the deal. That's when we switched to Eminence. We haven't used Celestions speakers since.

It's not that V30s don't sound good with our amps. It's just that the T4416 sounds better. The T3904 is now made in China and after all these years, the P50E does what we wanted Celestion to do originally - and does it better, in fact - so we don't need Celestions help.

So, if you like V30s, there is nothing about the amp design that will be compromised using a V30. Our amps are not voiced "only" for the P50E. What is optimized for the P50E is the cabinet design. In that, the P50 will perform better in our cab than any others.

And now you know that when you say V30, you could be talking about 5 different speakers - that all sound slightly different.

Wypowiedzi użytkownika TGP:
Mesa:

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The Mesa-only proprietary V30 seems to have its own thing going. Warmer and smoother right out of the gate, with its mids shifted lower and its highs more rolled off than the others, it sounds more broken in almost right away, to my ear, no matter what cab you stick it in. It carries its own celestion model codes. Here is a Mesa-only, custom-voiced proprietary V30, English made, post 2002, taken out of tall Recto cab. Model T4335 with extra copper on voice coil, seems like slightly different suspension and adhesives, straight 444 cone, etc.

Celestion:

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An old mid-90’s England-made (same as current chinese made) celestion-only voiced V30, painted tan-gold frame, model T3904, cone is stamped D20 444…..mids and treble sit differently from the Mesa and Marshall versions, to my ear, and I guess celestion couldn't be using either of the proprietary mesa or marshall voiced V30 sounds, for its own raw frame speakers available to the general public. Other amp manufacturers that are NOT mesa or marshall typically have this version of the V30 in their cabs, such as Engl, Randall, etc. Still reasonably warm but can be chesty and fizzy with some amps, and really benefits from heavy break-in to smooth out the fatiguing mid spike it throws off with some amps. Seems to have some extra 700hz too.

Marshall:

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the Marshall “Vintage” proprietary marshall-only model T3897, raw silver frame, made by celestion in England for Marshall, OEM. It never actually has Vintage "30" printed on the magnet sticker, just "Vintage". This is the first, earliest, longest-running, and original V30, initially designed and released in 1986 for use in some Marshall amps and cabs, before Mesa and Celestion ever had their own custom voicings later on in the 90's. If you're hearing a v30 tone on a recording made before 1990, it's these speakers. They were originally designed to sound almost like an AlNiCo speaker, but using a large ceramic magnet, sort of a cross between a celestion Blue and a G12H30.

This Marshall Vintage speaker seems the brightest, most crunchy, most metallic and most cutting of the bunch, with the upper mids and treble sitting differently (shifted higher up, overall) than either of the later mesa-only or celestion-only variants, to my ear. Less chesty mid-mids, and harder sounding upper mids, than the others. Treble can be quite piercing depending how you dial it with some amps, at high volumes. The cones are always just stamped 444. You'll find these in some of the old Marshall silver jubilee cabs from 1987-1988 particularly, and thereafter in the current- production Marshall 1960AV/BV cabs

To jest z kolei bardzo ciekawe:

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I can tell you, from swapping out the speakers into the opposite cabs, that while the cab shell design will slightly alter the content of the low-end and low mids, the overall voicing, brightness, eq'ing, etc. was primarily dictated by the differences in the various proprietary speaker designs and builds, IMHO. A mesa cab with Marshall Vintages suddenly sounds almost just like a Marshall cab, and a Marshall cab with Mesa V30s suddenly sounds a WHOLE lot warmer and smoother like a Mesa cab

Pisza także, że niektórzy butikowi producenci mają swoje OEMy.

Tytuł: Odp: Mesa rectifier 2x12 [140/120W] Why?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: wrobelsparrow w 04 Paź, 2016, 13:17:21

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Lots of confusion out there about wattages of Vintage 30s and Chinese vs. English manufacturing.

As for Mesa and its labeling, we have for years labeled our cabs as using V30s that are 70 watt handling capable and nearly any V30 built in the last 20 years is indeed plenty capable of a 70 watt handling capacity.

However, in the last year or so, in an effort to have our info consistent with the Celestion website, we've changed some of our literature to reflect a 60 watt handling capacity but haven't completely phased in new stickers for the back of the cabs quite yet. That's in process but while that's the case, there will still be some cabs out there that say 140 watts for 2x12 V30 cabs.

Wattage handling capacity is, in Boogie's view, a very vague reference to a generally misunderstood and much deeper concept. While we would suggest that there's not much issue to having 10 watts handling capacity more or less on either side when referring to Vintage 30s, the REAL subject for TONE is Chinese vs. English made.

Mesa continues to have our Vintage 30s made to our specs in Ipswich, England. We pay a premium for said speakers and do so because we feel they sound better than their current (and original) production from China. It's not something we broadcast out of respect for Celestion and ultimately, because we feel the speakers speak for us and the amps that get played through them. :wink:

Any amp can only sound as good as the speakers they are played through.

Hope this helps.

AB

Tytuł: Odp: Mesa rectifier 2x12 [140/120W] Why?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Zomballo w 04 Paź, 2016, 13:21:22

Dla Marshalla Celki V30 też były swego czasu robione 70w. Pewnie i dla Mesy machnęli taką serię.